Questions and Answers

I've been answering some questions on the iRunfar boards. I don't know if it does much good to do so as my answers just don't seem to meet the needs of the newbies who post on the boards. Everyone seems to want a pure formula for reaching peak performance at a particular distance. Nobody wants to admit they have personal issues to deal with along the way. Perhaps it is just a waste of my time. But I figured I'd cut and paste some of the answers and post them here. If you are reading my blog then you might understand what distance is, and what it means on a personal level. Anyway here on some questions and my answers.....


Question: I'm relatively new to Ultra-Distance races & am registered for my 1st 50 miler in August. I've been following the training plans in Relentless Forward Progress - falling somewhere between 50 - 65 miles a week, with consistent weekend B-2-B long runs. I'm 3 months in with consistent training, a 6 hour race that went well, & a recent marathon that was awful... & felt longer then the 6 hour run. I feel like I'm hitting an over-training wall & struggling to maintain any motivation or consistency - especially in the past 2-3 weeks. I have 2.5 months of significantly high mileage left on this training plan, ending with the 50 miler, as well as a 50k i registered for in 1 month. I don't want to abandon ship but can't keep up at this rate for another 2.5 months. Any more seasoneda runners that would like to weigh-in & offer some much needed advice, I would GREATLY appreciate.


Answer: With all respect to those who develop training guides (they are very helpful for new runners), there comes a time when you need to go out and communicate with your body. This is often best accomplished by a long slow(er) run/walk that is measured not in distance, but in time on feet. A twelve hour romp would be ideal, but an eight to ten hour one would likely help you understand where you are as an ultra-distance athlete. Lots of time to listen and feel your body in action. Lots of time to get into some good chaffing issues, shoe problems, blistering, hydration and electrolyte issues, mind games, and fatigue. Who knows you may even decide that this chit is just not for you....but don't make any final decision until the end of the run because we all think that at nine or ten or twelve hours. A long time on feet will let you face a few of the trail boogymen and perhaps allow you a little mild hallucination. If you are really lucky maybe you will end up talking to your own personal demon. But that last one is usually for the runs past 30 hours.

It is just as important, or more, to understand the time as it is the distance. You need to understand the time, the duration, the full extent of the potential nightmare, as much as the damned distance. Out at the end of time....things change, morph, and look different. Fast people are handicapped in their advice because they don't go out there, they are robbing the goody tables of your share of the food when you will still be two hours out. They don't know what happens to your shorts at ten hours. Only slow people understand the full time, of making it in just before the cut-off. Slow people understand the 'Time on Feet' concept.Get out there and do the time, and forget the distance on a few occasions.

I've posted some comments on pain and discomfort you should read. Others have commented on your question as it relates to other runners and their questions. Read the other posts to get a fuller understanding.

Depending on the terrain an 11 hour goal is quite doable. You could probably fast walk that if you had to. The weather is getting hot, the needs of your body will be changing. Good luck!.


Over Heating:

Question: Well, I think I may have had my first case of ALMOST heat exaustion. I went for a 7.5 hour run today at 78 degrees when I started and 89 when I finished. The strangest sensations happened today. at about mile 25 there where two big hills, when I crested the second I felt drunk... I had a hard time running straight, seemed I couldnt track a line, I had fuzzy vision and felt like I could have just plopped down and went to sleep immediately in the middle of the trail. After about 2 more hours I made it down to the State Park and stopped in at one of the local white water outfitters. I had a very hard time thinking and getting my words out, basically I was trying to ask for Gatorade. I bought two, made it to my car put the A/C and cooled and was back to normal. Does that sound like heat exaustion?

Answer: Heat is something I know about; both in the humidity of the tropics and the parching dryness of Bad Water-I crewed and did 75 Miles. The first question is what is/was your water intake, and how were you monitoring it? The second is what were your electrolytes, and how often were you taking them? Quite frankly if you think Gatoraide is any kind of cure for low sodium/potasium problems then you are seriously underestimating the seriousness of overheating/dehydration/low electrolyte levels.

As an example, and with no intention to offer my own experience as anything more than a comment on usages, we did about 30 miles today through an upper 70, low eighties, humid rain forest with plenty of ups and downs (5-6K) feet. I took two S-caps every two hours, drank about 130 ounces of fluids, did two muscle milks, finished a pack of triple sodium gel blocks, and ate maybe five fruit and nut bars. It took us just under 9 hours. My feeling is I could have been hitting the S-caps or some endurolytes, a bit more. ( I carry both as they have different blends). I ran out of water late and probably would have done a quart more on the final miles to the car.

In dry weather you will not see heavy sweat or a damp shirt, but may begin to notice some salt crusting on the edges of clothing. Both indicate high perspiration. If you are not used to heat then your body will demand more water and use it very quickly. After months of training on the dry sides of the islands we hit Bad Water and found ourselves doing 24-48 ozs. a mile or so!


What you describe sounds more like dehydration than a heat issue. But the sleeping is not a great sign as it is hard to say whether you actually slept or just passed out. Bad juju there. Were you peeing? What color was it? Kidneys can shut down quickly and you face long term damage if you go into a shut down for too long. Watching your urination is a key method in gauging your water intake. You need to be drinking enough to be urinating regularly as it keeps your kidneys flushing. If it drops off or the color goes toward orange/tea you need to react quickly with more water. Kidneys are touchy guys and if you get 'em upset they will punish you back. Bonking can be a nutrition or an electrolyte problem. So a constant intake of electrolytes with your fluids/water is important. Just how much is really individually dependent. I know some people who are taking two or three S-caps every hour. Other can get by on much less over the same distance. Genetics, training, physical characteristics are all variables in determining what is necessary electrolyte intake.

Don't stop the water intake at the run's end and perhaps even drop more electrolytes to meet the lagging demand your body has. Make sure you are urinating normally and watch the color even a few hours after the run. If you go to far into sodium deficit you put yourself into a really wierd zone where a saline IV can kill you. I have talked to two runners who went through this and it is quite severe. Both were lucky to get good docs, and one was still awake enough to explain what was a relatively common problem for the runner. It takes many hours for a knowledgeable doc to get you back to normal. So...thinking that you can just cure the problem with an IV can in the most critical cases be very dangerous and even fatal. No game this stuff.. In one case the low sodium crept up on the runner despite the taking of electrolytes!

As you may have noticed I said water. If you are using a high sugar fluid as your hydrater you may be in-taking enough ounces, but because the sugar concentration has to be below a certain level to facilitate absorption you may not be getting the fluid into your system. Cue the puking and diarrhea episodes! I use only water as my main fluid so I can regulate my intake better. I often shy away from any kind of mix, but may take a cup or two at an aid station. And watch the goo intake as that stuff will set off episodes of non-absorption if you slurp down too much. Cue the explosive gut nightmare.

I believe that symptoms of heat related issues are more often related to high heart rates, elevated breathing and panting, the stopping of perspiration. Lots of disorientation. Severe fatigue. And if you catch it early the best you can hope for is a major bonk. Over heating can kill you pretty quickly. Dehydration and electrolyte issues can exacerbate the problem, but primarily it just comes from doing too much in too short a time without proper means of dissipating the heat. I've only seen it once or twice. Both cases came on quickly and really flattened the runner.

One final note: Ibuprofen and other related drugs can exacerbate the problems. The kidneys don't like nsids (sp) and can react in a funky way if they have to deal with low hydration at the same time. Once again, it can kill you if you play the game wrong.


12 Hour Training

Question: Ok, I'm looking to pick the brain of some of you veterans. I need some training tips on how to run a 12 hour trail run on a 9 mile loop course. I've done a few 50k's in the past year and a 50 miler this past October, any advise will be appreciated.

Answer: Go out and run/walk for twelve hours. Find out what its like at 11:59. Until you have been there you can not understand. How can plan if you don't know? I don't care what Jagger says....Time is not on your side.


Hundred Training

Question: I am following the RFP plan for 100 miles on 50 miles training per week and all is fine so far.I have entered a 40 mile road ultra which falls on the end of week 11. Should I up my milage along the lines of the 40 miles to 100k plan for the last 6 weeks I have before this race or just carry on with the 100 plan and do that race and slightly increase the mileage?

Pain is Inevitable

Suffering is Optional

My note: This is the most idiotic saying I have heard. It professes to achieve some kind of Macho Ideal while ignoring the facts of one's own body. When inexperieced people use this kind of saying it says they believe it is some how noble to ruin their bodies. Stupid ignorant childishness that cause them years of pain and regret.

Answer: Kevin, The training routines are guides, but like the map of a battlefield they can only project an uncertain reality. What one finds on any particular run may or may not be in line with the training you have done to be ready for it. A road 40 in just over six is pretty fast, despite your placing, which is irrelevant in terms of 100 preparation. Avoid the comparisons. If you must, look at the age groups as they are more relevant.

What is the elevation change of the 100? What is its technicality rating? Do the hills and the technicality combine? All these will effect the wear and tear on your body. If its your first 100 I would suggest that you simply plan for a finish, and pace your early race to do just that, even if your feel like you can run like the wind. Hold back. Allow yourself to see the other side of seventy-five and then make a judgement as to how much more you can put into it. Remember there are some night bonks out there that can bite you very badly. Plan on them, and be prepared to deal with them. Remember that nights alone are almost as vicious. Running at night is one thing, running at night after you have done 50 is quite another.

Caution should be your guide. You can likely race walk the 100, if you don't spend an inordinate amount of time in the aid stations, and still finish far under the cut off. Prepare yourself for the aid stations, get in, get out, and don't sit down unless you must.

Finally, any minor gear problems you have incurred in your 40 will likely be magnified many fold in the 100. Get your gear straight, don't switch out anything unless it must be done, and slow your pace. You will finish just fine.

By the way. It's the pain that is optional, and the suffering that is inevitable. Get out beyond 80 and I think you will agree, though the mix will be such that at the time its hard to tell what is what.

Street running is not trail running. You have found that out. I would suggest a couple of weeks of very long slow runs/walks over fairly flat ground with some hills (do the downs slowly and push the ups) HOW lONG? You need to listen to your body and go lite on pushing it into some schedule. These long slow routines should help strengthen your tendons and perhaps lessen the pain in your knees.

From my perspective knee pain is not acceptable. You can push through some discomfort, but running on knees with pain is like wrapping a white cloth around your head and playing Russian roulette. Go ahead, but if suddenly you are no longer an ultra runner.....rest assured nobody will be around to pick up the body.

If you can get through a couple of weeks of very long hard hot highway runs, then switch over to the trails and walk through a few 20's. That will key your body to the change in terrain. It will also begin the change in muscle tension that you need to get through. Again push the ups and take it very slowly on the downs. Its likely that the tendons of your knees are not liking the downs. If you have time a slow trail 50 would be really great.

I'm getting ready for a 140 miler. I'm doing 35's twice a week and am finally coming back into form. My training goal is to get home and not be gimping round like an old footballer. I gauge my pace to my body. I put up with a lot of discomfort and suffering, but I don't play with the pain. Pain is my body telling me I'm being an asshole. Well.....a bigger asshole. My tendons are finally starting to respond. It takes a long time to get signals to them, and even longer to get some strengthening response. You are a bit younger, but far less trained, and your base is really very limited. You should be very careful. A few years from now, if you survive, you will understand what I am talking about. Right now you are going on emotion and muscle strength. Your tendons and ligaments don't even know what you are up to yet. Pushing too hard is just putting a few more bullets in the cylinder.

Once again I got to say that Pain is not acceptable. Suffering is what Ultra Running is all about. The important point is to be able to distinguish discomfort from pain. And that takes a lot of time on feet. It's one of major aspects of earning your bones as an ultra runner. It can not come from a schedule or a plan. It is what you and your body agree upon, and it is a two way constant discussion.

So that's my recommendation. Do a few weeks of really long hard hot road runs that test your endurance without hurting you. Turn around and do a couple weeks of 'trail adjustment' that is slow and gets you body attuned to the trails. If you have time do a few sections of faster stuff, but be ready to walk if the knees let you know.

Good Luck, and remember that that a slow finish is always better than a fast dnf.


Toe Nails

Question: Ok as I approach my first ultra in Feb. I guess what is the over under on toe nails I can look forward to losing? I lost two after the Ironman, so I guess 4? The picks are as follows:

Answer: If you are losing toe nails you might look at your shoes. They are likely too tight. You need to upsize or get a wider toe box. Secondly cut your toe nails a few days before the race. Make sure you don't have nails that stick out beyond your toes.

I always look upon any injury as a sign that I am doing something wrong, not as a badge of honor. This is not to say I don't have black toe nails or feet that have funny wrinkled nails, just that I try and find the explanation for the cause and eliminate it.Good luck on your race.

Reply:

Thanks Muench, your advice was spot on! I broke the first rule of running (find a pair/model of shoe that your feet love and stick with them). I tried a different shoe,and low and behold 2 black bid toe nails after a 24 mile training run, so back to old reliable.They (black toe nails) do not hurt, just annoying.As a side note, years ago I spoke with Andrew Thompson (AT record runner) at The Beast of The East about his AT experience, he said "I ran the whole AT in Asics, just different sizes because his feet had swollen up." I guess I was to stubborn or basically to stupid to take his advice. Well his and your (Muench) advice have sunk in.Thanks.Kind Regards,